Quick thoughts

[drakyndra]

Just some quick thoughts on The Satan Pit after my initial viewing, some on my opinion of the episode, on some on the repsonses I have seen so far.

Firstly: I liked it muchly. I don't think as much as the first part, because the build up is always creepier than the pay-off, and I am a fan of creepy and atmosphere when it comes to this sort of thing. That said, this two parter still rates very, very highly for me.

And it made you think a bit, had some great moments, had some moving moments, had a distinct lack of things that annoyed me, though it wasn't perfect.

However, the annoyance factor has shown up for a few people on my flist, and like with Girl in the Fireplace - but from different people - it's about an interpretation that completely bewilders me.


It's about that bit near the end, when the Doctor sets the Beast free, and in doing so dooms it. For some reason, because of the line the Doctor comes up with here - the "I believe in her!" one, some people seem to be perceiving this as the Doctor putting Rose ahead of the Universe.

And I haven't the faintest idea how they are coming to this conclusion.

Yeah, it wasn't the best line. But if the Tenth Doctor is anything, it's talk. He babbles and speechifies and goes on, and half the time he is talking utter rubbish. It's just what he does. But look at the actions here. He saves teh universe from the Beast. And yet he has no idea how he can escape, if the others are safe, if Rose is safe. And yet he still does it. Because it is the right thing to do.

I mean, even earlier, he said it himself (I won't quote anymore, because I can't remember the exact dialogue). The temptation here, the judgement is if he is willing to destroy the Beast, even if it means taking away Rose's chance of escape. Would you let evil live on, if it would save someone you love (platonically or otherwise)?

And unlike last season, he doesn't let someone else choose for him. He doesn't cringe back from it. He makes the choice, he chooses to let the prison fall, Rose's safety fall. And it is now he says he believes in her.

And why not? It wouldn't be the first time she's pulled off the impossible. Yeah, Rose annoys me. Yeah, she comes off as other a bit useless, or a Sue in a lot of situations. But she got into the TARDIS, adn destroyed the Daleks. She survived being shut in with a Dalek. She does stupid-but-brave things quite often, and the Doctor has faith she might pull it off now.

That's what it comes down to: He doesn't hesitate here. He knows what must be done, and does it. He saves the Universe despite the fact it could kill Rose. And he believes that she will survive, somehow. It's a mixture of his optimistic nature, his faith in humanity, and what he's seen from Rose.

And at no point do I ever see him deciding to put Rose ahead of the Universe. Hell, if it wasn't for the fact that he miraculously came across the TARDIS, they'd all be dead. Including Rose. But the Universe would be saved. He would have saved the Universe at the cost of Rose's life. And he never showed the faintest hint of regret for it.

It's pretty obvious that what's going on here is Universe > Rose (but can Rose live, pretty please?)

Yeah, it wasn't a good line to get the point across. But I can see him saying the same thing for pretty much any of his companions. Unlike a lot of the show, this isn't a blatantly shippy line - you can read your own interpretations into it. Which sort of muddied up the situation, from what I hear about the Considential.

But it's actions, not words, that count here. And the Doctor did here, as Ten, what Nine never did, to make the choice to put the greater good ahead of Rose's safety without outside prompting. It was all him there. Choosing of his own free will. And in the end, it was only sheer luck (or, according to some people, deus ex machina) that he found the TARDIS that he saved Rose.

Yes, that's right, the Doctor's actions saved the Universe and would have killed Rose if he hadn't gotten so incredibly lucky.

So, quite frankly, to the people on my flist who think the Doctor was putting Rose ahead of the Universe in this episode, I haven't the faintest clue where you are getting your ideas.

And something to keep in mind: character hate can distort perceptions just as much as character love.

Comments

[casirafics.livejournal.com]

That summed up almost everything I'd been thinking but was too annoyed to put into words. thanks. ;)

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

I think it all comes down to the fact that I find it impossible to hate fictional characters. I find the boring, or annoying, or very rarely dislike them, but I just can't hate them - even the ones we are supposed to hate.

And I think this is a case of people immediately associating this with the choices Nine made because of that line, and not paying attention to the differences in circumstance and result.

I did dislike Nine's Rose > Universe thing. Ten got the same choice, and unlike Nine didn't hesitate or need outside forces to take the decision from him. This read to me as completely different, so I can't understand why people are treating it the same.

[casirafics.livejournal.com]

I also read it as the Doctor having faith in Rose to do the right thing when left to her own devices, which she did; their actions together added up to the solution, regardless of their inability to communicate. It's a very different situation, all totaled.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

And something to keep in mind: character hate can distort perceptions just as much as character love.

Word to infinity.

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

As I said to casirafics above, I find it impossible to hate fictional characters. I can love them unreservedly, but can't ever hate them. What I get for being insanely positive, I suppose.

[misscam.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I've ever hated a fictional character, really. At least not with any passion. I can loathe real people with a deep passion easily enough, so the fictional aspect seems to be what makes me settle for just not liking some characters.

Or something, I don't know. But the vitrol at some fictional characters does surprise me a bit. In CSI fandom, there's some people that hate Sara so they feel other characters are tainted for even liking her. Well, if you'd peeked at my CSI wank reports, you'll have seen examples of some of that hate. Quite baffles me.

[aervir.livejournal.com]

I've just finished watching the episode, and I was thinking about the same as you during the Doctor's confrontation with the Beast.

At first, I was starting to cringe because it looked like as though he were putting Rose ahead of everything else once again (and although I do like her most of the time, she's not actually worth letting loose Satan himself on the entire universe). But then he smashed the vases, and it was just brilliant.

His decision combined with his faith in Rose also makes thematic sense. He physically destroys the Devil by destroying the key to the prison for good. But if the Devil is not only a corporeal form but also an idea, the Beast is fuelled by belief. Which means that putting his faith in someone else, someone who is not a (possibly) supernatural being but just a normal person, takes away the very foundation of the Devil's existence.

*wanders off to type a review of her own*

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

That's the point of it, isn't it? To contrast the differences of the two incarnations of the Doctors. One who puts Rose ahead of everything, and needs to be spurred by outside influences into action, and one who will do what needs to be done, and has faith Rose can find her own way out.

Point me to the healthier relationship out of those two. ;)

And I so agree with you on the thematic sense thing. Actually, it's a bit like Terry Pratchett's ideas on Gods - they are only powerful if you believe in them. *ponders*

[aervir.livejournal.com]

Point me to the healthier relationship out of those two. ;)

Heh. Well, the Ninth Doctor is awesome, but he is also more than a wee bit traumatized and slightly fucked up, isn't he?

Actually, it's a bit like Terry Pratchett's ideas on Gods - they are only powerful if you believe in them. *ponders*

Exactly! For this reason, I also liked it that they left it quite ambiguous what the Beast really was. It might have been the Devil if you think that it is.

[dune-drd.livejournal.com]

Totally what I thought. He didn't leave it to Rose to save the universe, he did it himself. I think it's a bit sad though that Rose (again) has no idea what the Doctor could do. I still think she is convinced he could never jeopardize her life. Heck, I bet she wouldn't have done it, she even wanted to stay on the planet althogh she knew he was dead... I do hope they resolve this somehow soon

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

It is interesting, and I quite want to know how this is going to play out. She's got some serious problems in her mode of thought I think, and I am hoping they get picked up on. Not next week so much, because that looks to be something a bit... different.

[dune-drd.livejournal.com]

I do kind of think this will be one of the main stories in the last two episodes.. I think I hope it will be. I imagine something like Rose standing next to the Doctor while he decides to let her die for the greater good. Now that would shake her view of things and might even be the reason she chooses to leave

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I still think she is convinced he could never jeopardize her life. Heck, I bet she wouldn't have done it, she even wanted to stay on the planet althogh she knew he was dead... I do hope they resolve this somehow soon

There's something about his faith that... I wonder if he'd have been so high on it if he'd known she did that?

I really can't work out what's going on in the Doctor's head on this one. At times he seems to know that All Is Not Well and at other times it's like he really doesn't know how far gone she is these days.

[dune-drd.livejournal.com]

Well, I think he assumed she might save herself. Or at least he seemed to be sure that the Captain would leave no one behind.
So his faith in her? He believes she's smart enough to figure Stuff Out, which she was.
I bet she'll never tell him she wanted to stay behind, sulk and die on that planet.

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

I interpreted it in almost the same way, with one addition: earlier he says that he can't believe the being comes from before the universe. All the science he knows, everything he knows about time as a Time Lord, says that's impossible. About as impossible, even, as Rose finding some way to save herself from being swallowed up by the black hole as the prison collapses. But he makes the leap of faith and believes in that anyway. I love how exhilarated he is in that moment.

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

Good point - the themes of this episode are all about belief and faith, and how they effect people. Though what the Doctor says is "I believe in [Rose]", what it really comes down to is having faith in her, despite the odds. Achieveing the impossible (Very fitting title for that first episode, wasn't it?). His strength to do what most be done comes from this faith, unlike Nine, who was filled with doubt, forever undecided and questioning. His beliefs make him powerful, just as his refusal to believe the Beast's words takes any power it has over him away.

[msgenevieve.livejournal.com]

And something to keep in mind: character hate can distort perceptions just as much as character love.

Thank you for the whole of this eloquent post, but particularly for that line. Because it's so very true and something that's been making me quietly bang my head on my keyboard for quite a few weeks now.

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

I've been seeing a lot of hate over the last few weeks, as you said, and sometimes it just boggles me. I always go into a show or whatever hoping that I will love it, and most often it pays off. Going into something full of hate for one aspect is obviously going to effect your final judgement of it.

[maple-clef.livejournal.com]

Word, word, word.

And I assumed the TARDIS had been hidden away down there by the Beast, to prevent the Doctor from escaping/saving the day... Still, I guess it is quite 'convenient' in the context of the story, so deus ex machina is perhaps right!

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

I have no idea where the TARDIS came from - I had forgotten about it at that point, I was so caught up in other things. So it was just a "Oh, yeah, the TARDIS!" moment for me. But I liked the Doctor's reaction, so I let it go.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

I had a thought that God (or something) gave it as a reward. But that's maybe too weird?

[calapine.livejournal.com]

Dude. Excellently put.

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

I'm just... a bit annoyed that certain people seem to have decided that they hate the episode because of something that blatantly didn't happen. It strikes me as a really bizarre attitude.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

But she got into the TARDIS, adn destroyed the Daleks. She survived being shut in with a Dalek. She does stupid-but-brave things quite often, and the Doctor has faith she might pull it off now.

One thing - I'm not sure either of them lived up to the other's convictions in quite the way it seemed to imply. I am unsure what to make of that. And like with those two situations, it seems to work out for the best regardless of the intentions of the characters.


And at no point do I ever see him deciding to put Rose ahead of the Universe.

I'm starting to think it's just that they've previously seeded the idea in my head too heavily for me to see anything else when they seem to be pulling that stunt again?


But I can see him saying the same thing for pretty much any of his companions. Unlike a lot of the show, this isn't a blatantly shippy line - you can read your own interpretations into it. Which sort of muddied up the situation, from what I hear about the Considential.

Now you make me wonder what they said on the Confidential. Hm.

I am, like I say, becoming unsure. My reasoning though is that the whole thing is being very shippy. We've had Rose basically propose marriage last week, and we've just had the Doctor get Ida to pass on his love (doesn't use the word, but we know what he was going to say). After that, I think, anything either of them says about the other is going to be seen as "teh shippeh." Basically, Rose has once-and-for-all stopped functioning as a substitute for Faceless Humanity and anything the Doctor says about her is going to be specifically about her. (GitF has a similar issue by the time it gets to the horse thing.)

I honestly think the episode causes the confusion itself, and there are weird bits that don't quite mesh that make me wonder what it was trying to say. (e.g. He has faith that she'll live, and we've just seen her turn herself into a victim because she doesn't want to leave him.) I really don't think it can take it that shippy and keep her as a symbol.

As for Rose > Universe, I think I'm on hangover from how many times they've pulled that or similar.

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

One thing - I'm not sure either of them lived up to the other's convictions in quite the way it seemed to imply. I am unsure what to make of that. And like with those two situations, it seems to work out for the best regardless of the intentions of the characters.

But what were their convictions, exactly? As far as I can tell, all Rose expected is for the Doctor to still be alive (and to save the day, I suppose), and the Doctor expected was that Rose had taken care of herself up until that point, and had her own situation under control.

I am, like I say, becoming unsure. My reasoning though is that the whole thing is being very shippy. We've had Rose basically propose marriage last week, and we've just had the Doctor get Ida to pass on his love (doesn't use the word, but we know what he was going to say). After that, I think, anything either of them says about the other is going to be seen as "teh shippeh." Basically, Rose has once-and-for-all stopped functioning as a substitute for Faceless Humanity and anything the Doctor says about her is going to be specifically about her. (GitF has a similar issue by the time it gets to the horse thing.)

I honestly think the episode causes the confusion itself, and there are weird bits that don't quite mesh that make me wonder what it was trying to say. (e.g. He has faith that she'll live, and we've just seen her turn herself into a victim because she doesn't want to leave him.) I really don't think it can take it that shippy and keep her as a symbol.

But here's the thing, just because she is being used as a person in her own right doesn't make it about TWU WUV 4EVA! Yeah, there was the almost "I love her" moment. But that doesn't mean she's The One. The Doctor loves all his companions, right, in whatever way. He might consider Rose special right now. But now isn't forever.

And you are right about the inconsistancy about the Doctor's faith in Rose, and what she tries to do. But, you know, doesn't that just imply he is reading her reactions a bit wrong?

I don't know where you are going with all this, because despite the fact that you don't like the ship, you seem determined to see it in places that it isn't necessarily. It just strikes me as... an odd reaction, and it's confusing me.

As for Rose > Universe, I think I'm on hangover from how many times they've pulled that or similar.

And the lesson to be learnt from this: Judge each situation on it's own merits. You saw what you expected to see in that scene. I didn't expect anything out of it, and so saw something different.