Interesting thoughts about post-Doomsday fic

[drakyndra]

I haven't been reading as much fic as of late - namely, since Doomsday aired. Partially because of the inevitable badfic wave which is swamping fandom, but mostly because even some fic writers who I normally quite like are taking their fics in directions I am not entirely comfortable with.

And I was having a bit of difficulty in expressing why.

However, then I stumbled across Battle of Wills (which is a highly amusing parody of said fics, by the way, and I'll recommend it to anyone), and castrovalva9 managed to explain the summary of said parody exactly why these fics weren't working for me.


"I've read quite a few post-"Doomsday" stories by now. While the odd one here and there has been outstanding, the plots of many horrify me. You've probably seen (perhaps even written!) some of the stories I mean: the ones where Rose spends most of her time bemoaning her meaningless life, mopes around listening to sappy songs and thinking about how well they describe her pathetic existence, cuts herself or commits suicide, etc. These stories basically posit that a Doctor-less Rose is a shell who can never lead a fulfilling life, because she is not an entire person in her own right and needs the Doctor to make her whole. I think that concept is pretty insulting and shallow, and it makes it seem like the authors don't like the character of Rose for herself, that they only like her when she is an extension of the Doctor.

Which is a long way of explaining why I wrote this story. I haven't always liked Rose, but she deserves some credit and respect."

And this is exactly the same for me. Yeah, I am not a particular fan of Rose. But the way these fics have been treating her is horrific. Aside from the rather offensive implication that the ordinary life isn't good enough for Rose (Dude, evem the Doctor can express how precious that is), the fact that people seem so content to make Rose wallow in her grief, or to fix things seems to show a remarkable lack of respect for the character.

And the remark about Rose only being liked as an extension of the Doctor - a terrifying thought, really, from the so-called fans of Rose, but it would account for a disturbingly large amount of reactions and fics.


So, to everyone else, thought, opinion?

Comments

[ant-power.livejournal.com]

I totally agree. I think the great thing about Rose is how independant she is. She's such a survivor and she really takes things as they come. I mean obviously she's going to be broken-hearted, but she's such a practical character it's impossible to imagine her not getting on with things. I really think that in the end, Rose would just be grateful for the time they did have together and that she got to travel with him and see all the things she got to see.

I think it basically just comes down to bad writing. Nearly every post-Doomsday fic I've read (not that I've read a heap yet), has had both Rose and the Doctor acting terribly OOC. The Doctor is all gushy and whiny and Rose is all co-dependant and pathetic, and the whole plot of most of these stories is either 'some miraculous happenstance reunites Rose and the Doctor, the end' or 'Rose and the Doctor are terribly distraught, the end' and I guess I just think there should be more to it.

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

I wrote some meta a little while back about how I saw the end of Doomsday as being a moment of grief - which is needed before one can recover from a loss - rather than an indication of a breakdown. So, yeah, I expect her to move on.

I think it basically just comes down to bad writing.

Aye. I mean, some normally quite good writers seem to have fallen into it, too, which I think might be what you point out - there isn't a lot of point to many of these fics, other than reuniting the characters, or wallowing.

[casirafics.livejournal.com]

My (slightly ship-centric) approach to Rose post-"Doomsday" goes about like this: if you've been cut out of a relationship with no real choice in the matter and no way to fix it, a mix of frustration, pain, helplessness, grief, and anger (if not at the person -- as in this case -- at least at the situation) are pretty much a given. But it doesn't mean you stop, or at least it shouldn't. I can't imagine Rose getting over it without the emotions lingering, but I also can't imagine her just lying down and pining away. She'd get on with things, and probably quite fiercely, as some redirected sort of revenge....

imho, etc., but I'd like to think that's not too far off base. ;)

[cedara]

Nope, it isn't.

Rose might cry often for a few weeks or so, but slowly she'd adjust, find new fun things.

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

I can't imagine Rose getting over it without the emotions lingering, but I also can't imagine her just lying down and pining away. She'd get on with things, and probably quite fiercely, as some redirected sort of revenge....

Good point. Actually, the redirected revenge thing could make for some interesting fic stuffs.

[xwingace]

I'm going to rec a Rose-fic at you. :-) I'm biased because I beta'd it, but seti_drd really does a nice job of showing a Rose who is proactive and moves on. She doesn't hesitate to grasp her chance when she thinks she might get the Doctor back, but she makes the best of it and shows what she's learned even when it doesn't work.

As to the post itself, I can't do much more than agree. I haven't actually read all that many either, but a fair few of those I have show the Doctor moping and/or frantically trying to get her back in a way that implies that, Rose is *incapable* of doing anything other than get rescued. At best, Pete and his Torchwood staff get to do something to help.

XWA

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

I'll read that later, at some point when I am less dead on my feet. (Stupid exhausting Tuesdays...)

But a lot of what happens in the fix-it fics is rather insulting to most of the characters, really. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face, it's abusing the characters to save the ship.

[dune-drd.livejournal.com]

Awwww, you're reccing my fic! I love you :) *hugs*

[xwingace]

Well, it fit the discussion as a counterexample, or at least I think so :-)

Besides, quality deserves love.

XWA

[dune-drd.livejournal.com]

you know that that comment makes me love you even more, right?

Prepare to be hugged!

[dune-drd.livejournal.com]

THis note is the exact reason why I haven't read the Doomsday fics out there. And it is exactly the reason why I wrote Rose/OC *hides*

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

They are a bit scary for the most part. I have a couple of decent ones tucked away for my next Links List, whenever I get around to that.

[dune-drd.livejournal.com]

It's mostly just so full of denial I can't bear to read most of them. *sighs* It seems I'm not a kind of girl who likes denial. At least not as a fan

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

It's the idea that they can't live without each other, isn't it? That they can't be allowed to. They have to be reunited, no matter what that says about either of them. So many scenarios that are plausible don't seem to be getting written. Her getting the chance and deciding to stay because now she knows what she needed and she misses it, but she's not going back. The one where the Doctor could go back for her and gets all "do I have any right to do that?" And Rose, at least with time to reflect on it, would realise that the Doctor moves on. If she waits for twenty years, she's setting herself up to get horribly let down when he's with someone new.

No one really cares about them outside their ship. Rose especially, which is pretty distressing when fandom claims to love her so much. I notice in the little I've read that the reunion is often (usuall?) taken as an end in itself. The story is over once they're back together, because that's the only thing that matters. And no matter what Rose is doing, of course she goes back, because what she wanted when she was crying at that wall is what she wants five years later when she's got a new life and has had a chance to think about it all.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

No one really cares about them outside their ship

Which is the saddest thing of all, and something that I think the scriptwriters themselves are partially guilty of. We went from proactive Rose, Rose who saw Sarah Jane and understood, and then suddenly we're being whapped over the head with "they'll never ever split us up" and "How long will you stay with me?" (Which is a VERY unDoctorish question to ask, since he happens to already know the answer and it's *not* "Forever"!)

They stopped being people and started being cardboard lovers, a huge disservice to both Rose and the Doctor.

There's also another component, I think... and that's the age of the shippers. I'd be willing to bet that most of the TheirLoveissoEternal! crew is young enough to really only know long-term love as something that's presented on TV or in the sort of paperbacks that have "join our monthly club" advertisements bound into the middle. Because once you've been in a long-term relationship you remember that it's not all kisses and giggles. Sometimes it's wanting to hatchet-murder the person you adore, if for just a fleeting moment.

I always said I wanted Rose to be one of the ones who left because she outgrew Peter Pan, even wrote a fic about it. My fic's been canonballed, but I still hope that Rose will grow a spine and get on. She has it in her.

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

"How long will you stay with me?" (Which is a VERY unDoctorish question to ask, since he happens to already know the answer and it's *not* "Forever"!)

Personally, that one is going in my collection of OOC Things I Pretend Never Happened, along with "I'm so glad I met you" and "I could save the world but lose you" to some teenage girl he's known for mere hours.

There's also another component, I think... and that's the age of the shippers. I'd be willing to bet that most of the TheirLoveissoEternal! crew is young enough to really only know long-term love as something that's presented on TV or in the sort of paperbacks that have "join our monthly club" advertisements bound into the middle.

The problem is the significant and rather more worryong selection of thirty-something shipper types (See TWoP amongst other places), many of whom are married and the like. It's happened in other fandoms, and it seems to have happened in DW too, and it freaks me the hell out.

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

Which is a VERY unDoctorish question to ask, since he happens to already know the answer and it's *not* "Forever"!

If nothing else, she'll die eventually!


They stopped being people and started being cardboard lovers, a huge disservice to both Rose and the Doctor.

*weeps*

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

It's the idea that they can't live without each other, isn't it? That they can't be allowed to.

And this is where we get into all those dodgy issues that come up when ficcers come up against canon authors and the like - the idea that the fans somehow know what should happen better than the people who wrote the damn thing. It's the whole entitlement thing when it comes to shipping: "We invested out emotions into the ship, and therefore the ship must happen."

No one really cares about them outside their ship. Rose especially, which is pretty distressing when fandom claims to love her so much. I notice in the little I've read that the reunion is often (usuall?) taken as an end in itself. The story is over once they're back together, because that's the only thing that matters.

And that fact is, indeed, worrysome. Because it puts a lot of the Rosefen in a much worse light - claiming to love a character, but only showing interest when she is shipped with the Doctor. There are some... distressing overtones to that, particular when you combine it with the "Being with her man = the happy ending."

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

And this is where we get into all those dodgy issues that come up when ficcers come up against canon authors and the like - the idea that the fans somehow know what should happen better than the people who wrote the damn thing. It's the whole entitlement thing when it comes to shipping: "We invested out emotions into the ship, and therefore the ship must happen."

I'll cut some slack on it feeling like it's begging to be fixed. It does present it like a fair bit it's some terrible unfair tragedy that clearly must be fixed by getting her back. It couldn't keep Billie, it couldn't kill Rose, it wanted the big ending (or non-ending, if you see it that way).


And that fact is, indeed, worrysome. Because it puts a lot of the Rosefen in a much worse light - claiming to love a character, but only showing interest when she is shipped with the Doctor. There are some... distressing overtones to that, particular when you combine it with the "Being with her man = the happy ending."

I think if they hadn't pushed it, people would have shipped them anyway. Based just on how much of the evidence is stuff we'd expect the Doctor to do anyway, and on how close RTD wants that sort of relationship to be. But it's indeed strange that people who adore Rose don't want her to be happy on her own or with someone else. (I... sort of suspect that Mickey got left with her so that we could assume they get together. There were ways to keep him, he's a likeable character, he'd have meant losing less of the recurring elements. But he's also someone we might want to see Rose end up with even if we don't want to see it right away. And of course there's the fake-out on Rose's pregnancy and Mickey's the obvious candidate. Even the Doctor ships them, omg.)

It's like she has no purpose without the Doctor, which, okay, they pushed a bit, but that was so totally her being lost in the whole thing. Otherwise she's just regressed as a character and might as well just have died in her first episode.

[--kali--.livejournal.com]

Maybe now we've got Martha (and lots of the more passionate Doctor/Rose shippers have left fandom in disgust because Rose isn't with him anymore) this won't be such an all pervasive thing...

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty certain there won't be as heavy OTP shippers for Doctor/Rose - the fans will know he's loved before, and so we will be left with more ship-preferrers, than diehard OTPers.

I hope.

Then, I think that as long as Martha is an interesting and likeable character, the ship should pretty much write itself. (Dude, it's Ten, he has chemistry with everyone)

[nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com]

the fans will know he's loved before

"But he never OUTRIGHT SAID IT!"

[--kali--.livejournal.com]

and everything...

[plsteward.livejournal.com]

Eh, lucky me, DW isn't my only fandom (& not my main one either.) DW fics, well, there are older ones that I'm just now finding that I like, but I have yet to find a fic I love. For me it isn't just the flood of badfic (not that it isn't playing a roll) it's that DW is something I watch & read meta for.

I've yet to find a Rose in fic that strikes me as the Rose from 2005 or the Rose I like (in 2006 Rose kinda felt flat.) But even if I could find a good fic Rose, I'm still more into Mickey, Jack, or the TARDIS. Maybe it's how I was introdused to fanfic, but for the most part Rose in fic has never done anything for me & now with the fixits, redos, & such, I'm bored with DW fanfic & have left for more interesting climes (like Stargate Atlantis & anime.)

[drakyndra.livejournal.com]

I'm also in the HP fandom, though less for fic and more for, you know, wank and mocking. But yeah, more the actual canon and discussion than fic with that fandom. But this exactly is why I started up with the links lists - to have a collection of fics I thought were good, so I didn't have to wade through rubbish looking for good stuff again.

And Rose does tend to be a bit dull in fandom - as I was discussing above, it's a bit disturbing how so many of these so-called fans of Rose only seem to like writing her as being the cliche romantic novel lead. Where's the Rose fic about Rose, rather than the Doctor?